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Default An Argument for the Viability of Soy as a primary protein source
by Narkissos 03-06-2008, 12:39 PM

An Argument for the Viability of Soy as a primary protein source

By Corey Springer
AKA "Narkissos"
Owner of:
Apollo Fitness Barbados & "The NarkSide" Fitness Forums.

Ok... I'm about to rant. I may or may not reference my claims at the end.

Bear with me... I just saw this pic on bodybuilding.com and it sent me into a frenzy!



Review the image above...especially the statement to which the arrow is pointing.

To those who cannot view the image, it reads: "The only downfall, is the exclusion of egg protein, and the fact that soy can give males the female looking pec syndrome".
_________________________________________________

How many times have you heard this yourself?

"Soy protein should be avoided by males...simply because it is oestrogenic... i.e. it'll make you grow tits".

Amazing then, that there're vegetarian bodybuilders out there, shredded to the bone...who use soy as their sole protein source.

Amazing, in that soy, being so oestrogenic, must surely encourage female-pattern fat deposition and a myriad of other conditions.

Mustn't it?

It's scaremongering.

My advice?

Don't buy the scaremongering.
_________________________________________________

The Discussion:

There are numerous phytochemicals in Soy.

Some are oestrogenic...some aren't.

With specific reference to the oestrogenic compounds:

You are honestly more at risk of oestrogen-related physiological change from environmental estrogens like those used in the production of plastics.

As mentioned above, some of these compounds aren't oestrogenic.

There are some of these phytochemicals which normalise the hormonal environment: adaptogenic compounds.

Soy protein itself is very versatile.

Let me reiterate: Soy is very versatile.

This isn't with specific reference to how it can be consumed. For the purpose of this argument, I am referring to its role in the bodybuilding lifestyle.

This is increasingly apparent while dieting..as its relatively high BCAA content, especially the leucine content, have a distinct protein-sparing effect.

Soy isoflavones, specifically the nonestrogenic ligands which bind the estrogen-related receptors, contribute to the lipolytic effect.(1)

Some argue that it increases thyroid output, but the jury is out on that claim.(2)

Anyway, as I was saying: The protein-sparing and lypolitic influences are especially important when metabolism stagnates during a caloric restriction phase.

Add soy's ability to decrease oxidative stress(3) to the mix, and you have one all-round great supplemental addition.
_________________________________________________

Oestrogenic Activity:

The correlation drawn between the potential estrogenicity of soy stems from the use of soy's phytoestrogen as a form of oestro-HRT for females.

The fact of the matter is the 'phytoestrogens' marketed for females are misnomered.

'Adaptogens' would be a better term for the spectrum... as the activity is akin to such.

Sure, some of the phytonutrients are estrogenic in nature... but just like the anti-estrogenic compounds in cruciferous vegetables, the amount of the byproduct one'd have to consume to be affected negates the possibility of being so affected.

Think about it.

How many hundreds of pounds of soy do you think goes into each bottle of HRT-'phytoestrogens'?

You are more at risk with regard to environmental estrogens.. as these are more pervasive, more destructive...and unavoidable.

Personally i consume a lot of soy..and when it's in my diet i get harder by the day.

I can attest to its benefits.

Soy-containing protein blends have been my mainstay for years.

In fact, at this very moment I'm consuming oats cooked with soy protein.

I've found that soy gets me very very hard... muscularly.

No water retention etc.

Which is VERY interesting.. as pundits would suggest that the oestrogenic factions would promote female pattern fat deposition etc...exacerbated by my body's naturally high estrogen levels (due to high aromatase activity).

However... no water.. ever (as long as soy is administered...)
_________________________________________________

Conclusion:

Adaptogens... remember the term from above?

These phytochemicals in soy normalize the hormonal environment.

Consider my hormonal matrix 'normalized'.

By Corey Springer
AKA "Narkissos"
Owner of:
Apollo Fitness Barbados & "The NarkSide" Fitness Forums.


References:
1. Ricketts ML, Moore DD, Banz WJ, Mezei O, Shay NF.Molecular mechanisms of action of the soy isoflavones includes activation of promiscuous nuclear receptors.J Nutr Biochem. 2005 Jun;16(6):321-30.
2. Messina M, Redmond G. "Effects of soy protein and soybean isoflavones on thyroid function in healthy adults and hypothyroid patients: a review of the relevant literature." 2006 Mar;16(3):249-58.
3. Azadbakht L, Kimiagar M, Mehrabi Y, Esmaillzadeh A, Hu FB, Willett WC. Dietary soya intake alters plasma antioxidant status and lipid peroxidation in postmenopausal women with the metabolic syndrome. Br J Nutr. 2007 Oct;98(4):807-13. Epub 2007 May 17

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  #2  
Old 03-07-2008
Demonwolf Demonwolf is offline
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Default Re: An Argument for the Viability of Soy as a primary protein source

What are you using?

[You might want to add how cheap soy is]

Too bad the stuff i've tried tastes like ass though.
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Old 03-21-2008
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Default Re: An Argument for the Viability of Soy as a primary protein source

Quote:
Originally Posted by Demonwolf
What are you using?

[You might want to add how cheap soy is]

Too bad the stuff i've tried tastes like ass though.
ive been told my ass tastes quite sweet......................aint that right C........................
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Old 03-22-2008
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Default Re: An Argument for the Viability of Soy as a primary protein source

Good article, Nark. I've never been so excited about soy before. ;D
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Old 03-22-2008
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Default Re: An Argument for the Viability of Soy as a primary protein source

Nark, I knew you consumed a lot of soy. I have heard that it increases estrogen, but then again I heard if you make a chic jump up and down after sex she wont get pregnant. :laughing Interesting post. :thumbup:
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Old 03-22-2008
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Default Re: An Argument for the Viability of Soy as a primary protein source

^^LMAO @ KW and Booz...

Thanks for the comments.

Demonwolf.. I use Universal Nutrition's Advanced Soy Pro.

-CNS
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Old 04-04-2008
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Default Re: An Argument for the Viability of Soy as a primary protein source

my protein blend now has a good percentage of soy isolate in it. good stuff, n.
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Old 04-04-2008
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Default Re: An Argument for the Viability of Soy as a primary protein source

i would use it but the stuff i have tasted is nasty
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Old 06-14-2008
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Default Re: An Argument for the Viability of Soy as a primary protein source

You know, the both of us have agreed on the viability of soy as a primary protein source and whether it turns men into women or not due to its increased amounts of estrogen. I know in the past I've touted the gospel of soy being a man's one-way ticket to womanhood (before I found out zinc and fiber can reverse that), but I've also preached that soy wasn't all bad.

However, at the moment, and forever, I think I'm inclined to agree and disagree. Here's why.

Soy is the second, only to peanuts, as being the most allergenic food to humans. To be honest though, I look at soy the same way I look at gluten. You've got those that it literally kills. Those that are just sensitive to it ( they're also sensitive to a number of grains as well), and those that can digest it properly.

Therefore, I think all of the research that has been done about soy increasing estrogen itself is completely wrong. :-) If Asians have been eating this stuff for years, then why did man-boobs start off as an American disease? ;-)

I don't have enough data to support this, but I'm theorizing soy's production of estrogenic side effects has more to do with a researcher's sampling including a large group of people, who are sensitive to soy and don't know that they are. This allergic reaction is causing estrogenic sides in the body's attempt to kill this foreign invader. I'm sure if a study was done on the relation of oats and estrogenic sides, they'd find the same thing. The number of people that are sensitive to oats is a LOT more than most people would normally think based off of some of Poliquin's statements.

All of the above is based off of my own experience. I'm sensitive to soy and oats ( damn, I want some oatmeal) it seems and they both treat me the same way. They bloat me up, they make my nipples swell, and I start getting all sensitive. :-) Damned allergies.

Argue. Discuss.
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Old 06-14-2008
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Default Re: An Argument for the Viability of Soy as a primary protein source

Quote:
Originally Posted by miked512
You know, the both of us have agreed on the viability of soy as a primary protein source and whether it turns men into women or not due to its increased amounts of estrogen. I know in the past I've touted the gospel of soy being a man's one-way ticket to womanhood (before I found out zinc and fiber can reverse that), but I've also preached that soy wasn't all bad.

However, at the moment, and forever, I think I'm inclined to agree and disagree. Here's why.

Soy is the second, only to peanuts, as being the most allergenic food to humans. To be honest though, I look at soy the same way I look at gluten. You've got those that it literally kills. Those that are just sensitive to it ( they're also sensitive to a number of grains as well), and those that can digest it properly.

Therefore, I think all of the research that has been done about soy increasing estrogen itself is completely wrong. :-) If Asians have been eating this stuff for years, then why did man-boobs start off as an American disease? ;-)

I don't have enough data to support this, but I'm theorizing soy's production of estrogenic side effects has more to do with a researcher's sampling including a large group of people, who are sensitive to soy and don't know that they are. This allergic reaction is causing estrogenic sides in the body's attempt to kill this foreign invader. I'm sure if a study was done on the relation of oats and estrogenic sides, they'd find the same thing. The number of people that are sensitive to oats is a LOT more than most people would normally think based off of some of Poliquin's statements.

All of the above is based off of my own experience. I'm sensitive to soy and oats ( damn, I want some oatmeal) it seems and they both treat me the same way. They bloat me up, they make my nipples swell, and I start getting all sensitive. :-) Damned allergies.

Argue. Discuss.
Nothing to argue against there Mike :)

We both agree on the prevalence of grain allergies.

It for this primary reason that I exclude grains from my true 'cutting' regimes...and advise against them in my offseason regimes.

I will, however, have to agree and disagree with you on the allergen note.

I developed a grain allergy (one could conversely argue that I always had one, but it intensified) a couple years ago... and could no longer metabolize my primary carb source: oats.

I'm very sensitive to all grains at this point.

The same can't be said about soy for me personally.

I think the level of potential allergen is too low...

w/ regard to the allergen causing estrogenic sides... We've hypothesized on other threads that this may indeed be the case (w/ specific reference to grains)...and this may be compounded by the high lignan content of grains. Lignans can have powerful pro-estrogenic activity.

w/ reference to your below statement:

"To be honest though, I look at soy the same way I look at gluten. You've got those that it literally kills. Those that are just sensitive to it ( they're also sensitive to a number of grains as well), and those that can digest it properly."

/end quote

^^The same can be said about just about any other protein source... Is that not so?


Ergo the thread title's supposition. :)

So in conclusion... I both agree and disagree with you.

Let's argue more over a soy shake and a steak

-C
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